May 28, 2023
Kris: Hello and welcome to the Design and Prosper podcast.
This is episode 81 and we are talking about designers over complicating all the things. If this sounds like you, be sure to listen in.
[Intro Music]
Kris: Welcome everybody.
Don: Hello everybody. What a juicy topic today.
Kris: Yes, So many of you would know. We work with a lot of designers, through the academy and through our one-to-one coaching. We see a lot of processes, a lot of systems, a lot of different ways of doing things. So people come to us with their processes, their established ways of doing things, So you name it, we’ve seen it,
Don: Yes, we have. There’s so many ways of doing things, really. There is, and, and it, it really is bamboozling sometimes to see the level of detail in some of the things that come across our desk and. We, you know, sometimes it’s, wow, that’s so fresh and so great.
And we unpack that and talk about how wonderful that process is and, and even take that into our teachings, which is really exciting. So we’re, we’re ever expanding, we’re ever learning. We love
Kris: Yeah. We’re lifelong learners for sure.
Don: We are lifelong learners, but then there’s the ones where we are like, Wow, that’s just really complicated.
And we, we, we scratch our heads. We really ask why. And we’ve got a few theories as to the why.
Kris: Yes, yes. We’ve got a pretty firm opinion on this, so, we are putting on our, um, coaching bossy pants today because we want you to really assess what you’re doing and we’re gonna run through some examples of the things we keep seeing on repeat. Yes. And, they’re pretty easy to fix. And something that we’re noticing is designers aren’t asking why. Yeah. Why am I doing this?
Don: They’re not asking that. That’s exactly right. And the first thing that we ask when somebody reaches out for our help is we ask why? Wo why did you do that? And, and what is the reasoning? And often they go, oh. I don’t know. Or it might have, they might have seen it that way, or they might think that the client has that expectation, but they themselves don’t know why and they’re not thinking to ask why I’m doing all the things, all the extra work.
And you know, from presenting concepts to promoting themselves, even the way that brand manuals are created, it’s so complicated. There’s so many complex approaches to all the things,
not to mention the time, how time consuming these things must be like we see things where we are like, wow, why would a client have paid for all of that work? And then we go, you know what, I bet you the client hasn’t paid for all that work.
Kris: and all that time? All that time,
Don: that It’s like, oh man. So really, it, it really has us thinking. There’s, there’s an undercurrent happening in our industry where we are over complicating things. Yeah. And we want to, we want to make it really loud and clear that for us, a confused mind never
Kris: Yeah,
Don: that’s, that’s it. Bottom line. If you confuse the issue in any aspect of your design business, whether it’s your messaging and your marketing or your process or your presentations, a confused mind never buys. So just remember that and, and ask yourself every time you do something in your business, is this necessary? Am I being paid to do this? Is this clear?
Kris: Am I over complicating things? And in over complicating things, you create overwhelm not just for yourself, but for your clients too. And how Donna was saying, the confused mine never buys.
They’re not going to buy into you as a designer if they’re confused from the very beginning or overwhelmed or it’s too complicated from the very beginning. And they’re not gonna buy into your concepts either because it’s too complicated. It’s too like what? What is this? It’s too much.
Don: Throwing your clients into overwhelm potentially. And what we really strongly believe you would be throwing your clients into overwhelm. From what we are seeing, we are seeing it time and time and time again from messaging right the way through. So we’re going to address all of the areas today or the areas, like Kris said, the areas that we have seen on repeat. We’ll address those today and give you some, some insight into how you can really pair back. You can really just pull back from that and, and you will still.
Be enough. Yeah. You will still be okay. You are still worthy of charging those beautiful premium prices without throwing in the whole box and dice all the bells and whistles.
Kris: that’s where it comes from, isn’t it? That, um, not enoughness.
Yeah. Yes. And the imposter syndrome and all the things. So designers are trying to be really impressive, but they end up outsmarting themselves because they’re trying to be really impressive and that leads to overexplaining themselves, spending too much time on projects over delivering all
Don: yeah. Yeah. The key for me there is spending too much time because in business we are all about profitable.
Projects. And if we are over complicating every facet of our business, think of the time, man, you would be exhausted. I would be exhausted. You know, looking at all of the things and thinking that I had to go to that nth degree on every single element.
So yeah, you, we are gonna help you buy some time back today. Beautiful designers. Yeah.
Kris: So should we get into some examples? Yeah. Okay. So the first one that we wanted to talk about today was how you’re marketing and promoting yourself.
Don: Hmm.
Kris: So we see a lot of designers is who are spending so much time on Instagram.
And other socials, but we’ll pick on Instagram today.
Don: Yeah. Insert all, all socials
Kris: and and it’s all for the goal of getting followers, perhaps engagement. But as we know, Instagram’s really hard to get engagement on these days.
Don: Mm-hmm.
Kris: Um, it’s hard to get results, but even further to that, designers aren’t even tracking the results.
Don: No. So what is the roi, return on investment for of that time you are spending? You know, it really is important as a CEO of a business. We’ve said this before, get your big pants on when it comes to this type of thing. You have to know your numbers. You have to track to understand whether that time you are investing in any of your social platforms is working for you.
You know, we’ve all fallen into the trap of obsessing over followers and wanting to get the all important, you know, numbers up for, for our followers, but are the all important numbers up? For conversion? Are people reaching out? Are they DMing you? Is that DM then leading into an initial touchpoint form?
Is that then leading into a discovery call? Are these people becoming clients? They’re the numbers that we should be obsessing over, not the follow account.
Kris: Yes, exactly. And there’s so many simple things you can try rather than spending hours and hours on Instagram.
Don: Yeah. There’s a whole world outside of Instagram, isn’t there? There’s a whole world all this life is happening out of, outside of all socials. Really? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kris: Yeah. And they are proven and they work. Yeah. One of them is, it’s one of our favorites is actually to reach out to past clients.
Don: Mm.
Kris: And it’s such a simple thing. How are you going checking in? Um, it’s been six months since we did Project X and how can you serve them further? How can I help
Don: How can I help you? What’s next? Is there anything on the horizon? Do you have any ideas percolating? What’s going on?
I’m excited to do more work for you. Be honest, you know, you are excited to do more work for them. It is what your business is all about.
Kris: Mm.
Don: And it really does need to be really, really simple, Kris. And I really love that idea of like a few lines in an email. That’s all it needs to be.
And you know, then it’s not overwhelming, it’s not over complicated, and the client will feel. Compelled to write back because it’s only a few words. They don’t have to write your great big novel back to a great big novel email. It’s, it’s a few words to them and hopefully a few words back, which are, I’d love to chat.
Let’s talk about, I’ve got an idea. Let’s talk about this thing. So yeah,
Kris: yeah, let’s book in a time.
Don: book in a time. Make sure you get, put a proper booking link into that email. Yeah. Make it so easy. Make it easy. Make it easy. That’s right.
Kris: Yeah. Another thing that you could do is follow up on past leads. So if have you had anybody who reached out for work and it might have fizzled out or might have been a no for now. It doesn’t mean it’s a no forever, so you could just reach out or if you haven’t heard for them, just ask the really simple question, Hey, lovely.
How is your branding going? Are you still thinking of working with a designer? I would love to work with you. Simple as that.
Don: Simple as that. Rechat, I’m here to have a chat. Let’s chat and pop your booking link
Kris: there. Yeah. Two sentences.
Don: Two sentences. That’s it. That’s it. Another one that we absolutely love is something from our era.As designers, we use this. All the time, but we use this all the way through our design careers. So this didn’t, didn’t leave like a good pair of Levi Jeans, I guess. Classic. Absolutely never goes outta date. So, um, it’s the simple postcard. It’s the simple direct mail. Sent to the local businesses that you wanna work with. And you know, you might think, oh no, that’s a little bit too old fashioned for me. It’s a little bit out of date.
Kris: Mm.
Don: You might think, oh no, that’s too simple. Why wouldn’t anybody reach out to me after receiving a postcard? Make it a cracking postcard. And I’m sure they’ll be in touch.
Kris: Yes, elevate it. Cuz you might think, ah, postcard, that’s not very elevated. It’s not high end enough, but, Of course you can make it elevated and high end. You can make it personal. You can, you know, add that little personal touch. You could even have a little handwritten bit to, to say, I see you, I wanna work with
Don: Yeah, Yeah.
Kris: So it is not just random.
Don: Yeah, that’s it. And, you could even have a QR code on that postcard that leads them directly to your beautiful website, which encourages them to, to fill out that initial touchpoint form and get on a discovery call with you.
Kris: Yes. And so you can track it as well.
You can send them to a very specific site on your website so you can actually see is this converting? Am I getting. Um, am I getting any bites here? Are they actually going there exploring? Are they filling out the form or is it a dead end? And then you can look at that as well and go, okay, they’re interested.
They’re gonna have a look at that page, but they’re not going any further. Why? So then you can start assessing that. There’s so many layers
Don: layers? Love that. Love that, Kris. See how Kris went straight to r o? I return on investment. I wanna know if I’m gonna spend money on printed collateral. I wanna know what the conversion is. So, yep, that was a hot tip.
Kris: All right. Another one. Your website.
Don: This one is a big deal. We, we do quite a few website audits and we think that our beautiful designers out there are often out designing themselves. Mm-hmm. They are really highly valuing the aesthetic over the function, and we have to remember that our website is for the user experience. So yes, it has to be beautiful. It has to be aesthetic, it has to be beautifully aligned to your brand. But it also needs to function really, really well. They need to be able to work with you with ease, and if we have a beautifully designed website, That doesn’t tell us what’s next, how to work with us, what to do. Then we’ll lose them. They’ll be gone.
Kris: Yep. And I can imagine if we had a whole bunch of designers in front of us right now, which kind of gets me excited. Actually. We should do a live event, Don.
Don: Yay.
Kris: Yay.
Don: Let’s do it.
Kris: Yes. And if we ask you to put up your hands, how many of you are actually designing your websites with other designers in mind,
Don: uh, Kris, well, we need to do it. You are our target market. Beautiful designers. Um, but we have done that in the past. I, I am so, so guilty of that, so I know, I know it. I know there’s so many of you out there and like, if any of my peers see this, I want my peers to love this. I need that. It needs to be beautifully designed. So yeah. Guilty,
Kris: But are you outsmarting yourself or out designing yourself as Don said before, and also that’s stuff that you’re gonna do, those bells and whistles and the things that you probably don’t need, like the extensive animations or the little tricky cursor that like pops up this other thing and takes you to here and it’s like, wow.
It’s like, Really beautiful, really stunning, and oh, I haven’t seen that before. But is it actually functional? Is it going to get the client to understand the transformation you are going to provide for them, and is it going to get them to reach out to you to book that call? To find out more information and get that process started with you?
Don: That’s it. That that is the primary objective of your website. So ask yourself. Does my website take into consideration the primary objective, which is to get that all important lead to reach out to you? How easy are you making it for them?
Do they land on your site and know exactly how to work with you? Just remember we’ve got but seconds, but seconds before they’ll just bounce away. They’ll be like, ah, no, it’s all too hard. It’s beautiful. Pretty, but I don’t know how to work with this person. I dunno where the link is. I don’t know what to do. It’s all too confusing. I confused. Mind never buys
Kris: Yeah. It’s a real sweet spot, isn’t it? That you need to get with aesthetics and beauty and function
Don: Mm.
Kris: because if it’s not functioning and that user experience is poor, well it’s gonna be quite useless.
Don: So we need to, we need to make sure that we aren’t out designing ourselves and really taking care of that, making sure that our brand and our messaging is ever evident.
But so too is the transformation that the client is gonna receive, and then the primary objective. Getting them to get on that call, getting them to reach out to you to get a quote so that you can actually provide a service for this client.
Kris: Yep.
[Background Music and testimonial]
Kendra: Hello everyone. I am Kendra with Kendra SMO creative out of the United States. I own my own graphic design business and am a recent member of the design and prosper academy. And so my experience, the design and prosper academy has been absolutely incredible. I have learned so much from it and some of my favorite things are the community it brings, um, the growth in myself and my business, and then also the materials that it provides me. So the community has been awesome. It’s been so nice to meet with other graphic designers regularly, and also ask any questions to Kris and Donna. And then also just be able to bounce feedback from different people as a one woman business.
It is, um, really nice to collaborate with other designers and people who have the same interests as you. in addition, I have grown so much as a graphic designer and also a business owner from this, experience. And so it was great to learn their processes, learn their, um, resources that they use. And it’s just been so fun to kind of learn from their experience.
And lastly, the materials that they provided, um, have been a game changer for my busines. Uh, whether it’s discovery call items or, proposals or contracts, I think materials alone that this, experience has, greatly grown my business and gotten me clients that I wouldn’t have gotten before.
So, to Kris and Don, thank you so much. And also to anyone, uh, considering the design and prosper academy, take the leap of faith. It is so worth it and that it just has incredible value.
[Testimonial ends]
Kris: Okay. The next one we wanted to talk about was design inclusion. So what you’re including in your quotes and Yeah. What you’re providing to the client.
Don: Yes. Right. Like the brand marks and the icons and the secondary logos. Yeah. And we just wanna say here what the, what with all the variations, what’s going on, you know, has it been asked for, who asked for all these variations and where. Are they gonna use them all? Yes. Yes. That’s what I wanna know.
Kris: Yes. Because we’ve just never done it really. We have secondary lockups. We have different logo lockups for certain applications. And that is determined in the brief. Yeah. But we’ve seen so many designers who have. Secondary brand marks, icons, and just all these bells and whistles and extra things
Don: And they’re all beautiful. They’re so beautiful. But when we’ve seen them, we’re like, oh, okay. Great. Where’s that one gonna be used? Oh, I don’t know. I don’t think they’re using that anywhere. We are all about efficiencies. We don’t want our beautiful designers out there wasting one minute of your precious time.
So get discerning and make sure you ask, is this needed? And what are they gonna use it for? Where will it be used? And even, okay, if it’s a future thing, when will it be used? Do I spend my time on that now or is that in a phase two or a phase three of this project? We don’t need to be working on things that we don’t need right now.
If we don’t see there’s gonna be a need for it to be used in the short term. Honestly, we feel like, again, it comes back to designers feeling like they have to prove themselves and they have to show like multiple, uh, application.
And, and it really is, it really makes us sad to be honest, um, that all of this work is being done and it’s a little bit fruitless. A lot of it is never going to be used, and we don’t want you wasting your time like that. So be discerning. Ask the question, what’s it for? When is it going to be needed for? What’s the timeframe? So yeah, pull back. Pull back on that.
Kris: that. Yeah. We see these secondary, um, brand marks and icons, and they’re quite different to the original brand as well. And how confusing is that for the client? How, how are they gonna use it? How are they gonna know where to use it? and it just overcomplicates again.
Don: Yeah,
Kris: So what we need to do is just focus on creating beautifully crafted solutions that are solid, that are purposeful. And it speaks to the target audience. We don’t need to do all these extra things. It’s like all these extra sprinkles and toppings on an ice cream, you just don’t really need it.
Don: No, you don’t need it. I wanna circle back to what Kris just said there about them being so different and reiterating that a confused mind never buys a confused mind never buys in two ways. In this instance. Firstly, it might confuse the heck out of your client.
They’ll be like, why is it so different? Why am I looking different there? And why, what, what’s happening there? Or then if your client embraces it all, takes it all on, puts it everywhere, then it will confuse their audience and their audience may be the confused mind that never buys.
And then your client will be scratching their head and wondering why their latest rebrand hasn’t been a success for them. So,
Always to distill it back to the clarity. Is there clarity around this brand? I love Kris’s word, solid. Is it solid? Is it, is it really strong? Is it clear? Is it purpose? Clear?
That’s your job as a designer. So again, just resist the urge to prove yourself. we really do think that there’s a lot of that going on,
Kris: You know how artists, when they’re learning to be an artist, they look to the masters, they’ll look to the, the big guns, you know, all the amazing artists. You look to them for inspiration and technique and that sort of thing. Well, in the same way we’ve always advised students to look to the design masters. Right. And, and you look at the big brands that are really
Don: Mm-hmm.
Kris: They are solid. They use a lot of repetition. There’s not a lot of variation unless they’ve got a sub-product that needs that differentiation. But it’s used on repeat. On repeat, on repeat. You don’t need to have all these little, little bells and whistles.
Don: Absolutely.
Kris: All right. Next one. Presentations. So presenting concepts to clients
Don: Mm-hmm. Now what the, what with this, we have seen so many where it’s so complicated.
Kris: Too much, too much stimulation, too much overwhelm, pair it back. Less is more when it comes to brand presentations.
Don: Yeah. There is way too much visual stimulation. We need to implore you to just really pull back. because it is just catapulting clients into overwhelm.
Kris: Yep,
Don: There’s no place for ego here. There’s no place for your brand in a presentation. We are really, It’s really minimal. It’s just a nod to your brand. Lovely little subtle nod. Here I am. I’m the authority. I’m presenting this work to you, but the rest of it is about the client. And we really encourage you to even then pull it back. Single concept idea around each page. Not the actual concept. Am I articulating that well enough, Kris? What I’m saying is each page should have a single concept that you’re presenting.
Kris: Yes. Not too many elements on each page.
Don: Yeah,
Kris: It overwhelms.
Don: that’s it. Less is more.
Kris: yeah. Especially when you’re getting them to make a really important decision. And you want it to be Yes. You don’t want that confusion to come in, oh, what’s all this? Oh, my brain’s going this way. What’s that thing? What’s that thing? You want it to be slow and steady. A beautiful slow reveal process. And when we say that, we are seeing presentations are very overwhelming and a little bit over the top.
Our system for presenting is very extensive, right? It is extensive, but it is simple. It’s easy to digest. It takes the client on a journey, step by step through the solution, and so we’re just seeing a little bit too much, too much visual stuff.
Don: That’s right. While ours is comprehensive, there’s plenty of space for our clients to absorb the ideas and make informed decisions along the way. And you can have that too. You will have happier, more satisfied clients if they have a really clear journey through the presentation. They really understand it and grasp it without feeling like a little bit of a deer in headlights and getting all confused because nobody likes that feeling of being confused.
And then it, they can become a little bit defensive when they’re confused and ask questions that may not. Really relate to the issue at hand and, and that kind of thing. So if it’s nice and clean and clear and everybody, everybody feels good about it, then you’ll have happier clients. Uh, we can promise you that.
Kris: Yes. Pare it back. Less is more. We’ll keep on saying that. Less is more. more. Less is more.
Don: Yes. Yes, please.
Kris: Okay. Moving on to the next one. manuals.
Don: It’s a big one.
Kris: Yeah. So, We have a bit of a theory about brand manuals and why they’ve gotten so complicated and we suspect that this is to blame and we could be wrong, but this is what we are seeing, especially in the last say, five to 10 years.
We’ve seen a lot of templates bought by designers with, you know, the complete brand manual. This is what you included in a brand manual. And what we suspect is happening is the lovely person who has created it is putting a lot into it in order to justify charging for it, in order to make sure it looks like it’s got a lot of value.
And so it’s unnecessarily complicated. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So we’re seeing designers come to us so burnt out. They sometimes take a whole week to do a brand manual.
Don: Yeah. Which is crazy.
Kris: For a small business.
Don: For a small business. And, what’s concerning to us is that a brand manual, a really extensive brand manual where.
There is lots of application, lots of layers that have been considered for big companies. A brand manual of that size. Honestly, it’s in the 10 K plus and what we are seeing is a lot of designers are including that level. Of brand manual in small projects in their, small branding projects. So this 10 k plus, and I mean plus, plus plus, um, we’ve worked on some big, big brand manuals. Um, and, you know, they’re creating them for clients and not being paid for them pretty well at all. That’s what we are seeing we’re, we are wondering how on earth, That has become a profitable project when the brand manual of that extent has been included in their brand package and what, happening.
Coming back to our Siri about these gorgeous templates that are out there, and they are gorgeous templates. They’re beautiful. But what they do is they seed. You for what should be included in the brand manual. And then what we’ve noticed, a lot of designers are falling in the habit of creating those extra elements as a bit of surprise and delight for their clients.
But their clients haven’t asked for a lot of it. Um, their clients aren’t ever really going to use any of it, and it’s just wasting your time and. Wasting the client’s time as well. Really, if we are really honest about that.
Don: it’s confusing the heck outta them. So we, we want you to be really discerning when it comes to brand manuals. Only deliver a brand manual with the elements that you have created because they are the elements that you need to manage, right?
So we are finding that designers are throwing brands all over these different things, thinking that they have to show application, but that application hasn’t been asked for and that application hasn’t been paid for. So be really, really careful. The templates can actually take you down a rabbit hole where you don’t even need to go there.
Kris: Yeah, and really carefully consider which of your clients need a brand manual and which don’t because are you the ongoing design manager of this brand? Are you the ongoing client? We tended to do detailed brand manuals for clients that were large corporations corporations and they had marketing team, and there was a lot of moving pieces within their businesses with smaller businesses.
It wasn’t actually necessary to do, um, a detailed brand manual because we were looking after it, we were looking after the brand. They weren’t outsourcing any parts anywhere else. So it’s, it’s extremely concerning to us because we know that there are designers out there who are the level of a 10 k plus brand manual that Donna said.
But we know you’re not getting paid for them because what kind of small to medium client actually has the budget? For that kind of brand manual. And why would they need it? Are they getting a return on investment?
Don: Yeah. Come back to that, you know, from business to business, business owner to business owner.
Do they need this? And Kris and I, we were really proud of the fact that we never created work for clients when they didn’t need it. It was, a part of our, values. Um, we shared this value, if they don’t need it, they don’t need it. We, I would much rather work on a project for them that is strategic and conceptual and is really contributing to the transformation of their business.
And if, if they have a Juicy 10 K to spend, I would rather spend that on something that is going to be really transformative for them, not a brand manual that might go dusty on a cyber shelf, because really if I’m the designer, like Kris said, if, if you are the designer doing all the work, it’s such an unnecessary expense.
Having said that though, what we do love is a brand snapshot. We love to include a brand snapshot in any branding that we do for anybody, because it’s a beautiful overview of all of the key elements within that brand. You can have hyperlinks to, fonts and to any assets, and it’s a really beautiful way to keep the brand.
For the client in one spot where they’ve got all of the bits and pieces there and they understand it, the language is there. A little bit of rationale behind it is there, and it’s a beautiful, smart element of their brand that they will check in on and, and, and can access anytime they like. That’s powerful. That’s valuable. And it’s a single page.
Kris: Yes, so we have the, the big kahuna, um, brand manual template in the academy. So our design business course, the academy, but we also have the simpler version as well, because it is really lovely to wrap up a, a branding project like that in a, in a lovely little bow and it’s beautiful for future staff coming onto, um, the team of the business that you’re designing for so that they can quickly understand the basic elements of the brand, understand a little bit of whatever you have created, like. If you haven’t done their brand values, if you haven’t done all their messaging and brand voice work, you’re not gonna be including that.
That’s another thing. Just like Don said before, don’t be including stuff that you actually haven’t worked on yet. There shouldn’t really be any new content.
Don: No surprise and delight
Kris: Yeah. Not in a brand manual. So, um, goodness me, all of these things we’ve talked about today, it’s just about simplification, isn’t it?
Don: It is, it, is all about simplicity. I do wanna circle back to one thing, Kris. I did mention surprise and delight, and part of our process, whenever we surprise and delight a client, it is not at brand manual stage. I just wanted to that that the surprise and delight is at the concept presentation stage, and then that ignites them to either want that thing or they’re not ready for it yet and you can pop it into a future phase. But it definitely needs to be quoted and paid for. definitely don’t ever have anything in a brand manual as a surprise and delight because it hasn’t been fully realized yet. It hasn’t been fully conceptualized, it hasn’t been fully worked up there isn’t finished up for this thing. It has not been fully realized. So don’t be surprising and delighting in a brand manual. It’s just a waste of your time.
Kris: Yeah. Yeah. And that time that you spend on things like that could be spent on promoting yourself. Yeah. You know, or, some other major improvement in your life and business. And it’s so sad to think of all that time that is spent on things that aren’t really fruitful for your life and business. So it’s time to simplify.
Don: Yeah, that’s it. And, and by doing that, you’ll not only enjoy your craft so much more because when you are working, it will mean something. It won’t be a waste of time, and you’ll actually fall in love with your business again. If you’re out of love with it, you’ll fall in love with it again. And if you’re loving it, you’re love on it more because you’re not wasting precious time. You’re actually really being discerning with your time. You’ll feel empowered, I think.
Kris: Yeah. All right. Simplify. Keep it clear. Keep it focused on the client.
Don: Yes. So go out there. Beautiful designer and design with confidence. Deliver with confidence and clarity, and don’t allow that imposter syndrome that’s always lurking over our shoulder.
You know, that feeling of lack of self-worth and that over-delivering that desire to overdeliver to really prove our worth. Don’t allow that to creep in and know that you have got this.
Kris: yes. Okay. Until next time,
Don: Take care. Bye
Kris: bye!
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